Bill Richardson, a former US diplomat, who served as the governor of New Mexico and Secretary of Energy, participates in dialogue on exchanging prisoners between Washington and Moscow along non-governmental lines. In an interview with TASS he expressed hope that Russia and the US will be able to hold at least one prisoner swap this year, which will result in the release and return of US national Paul Whelan. He also said interaction on bilateral humanitarian issues can be the clue to improving relations between Russia and the United States.
— Governor Richardson, thank you so very much for your time. And thank you very much for this opportunity. Let's jump right into it, if you don't mind. So, my first question is, I wanted to ask you if you're still in touch with the Russian authorities, with your counterparts in Russia, how is this work going on?
— Well, on the negotiation on prisoner releases, exchanges, there's an official channel between the US and Russian government. I don't interfere with that. However, my organization, which is a nonprofit, we don't work for the US government, we work for families of hostages, that is the work that we've been doing for many years. I have been in touch with my Russian counterparts. I have been in touch with the Russian Embassy in Washington. These sessions that I've had on prisoner exchanges involving Trevor Reed, the American, Brittney Griner, have been positive. And a young man that got out by the name of Taylor Dudley at the Russian-Polish border, these discussions with my Russian counterparts have been positive. And I appreciate the access on these prisoner releases that my organization and myself have gotten with Russian officials, Russian non-officials, and it's been productive. Yes, I have been in touch with them on several cases. Paul Whelan, Marc Fogel, a couple of others that I don't want to mention. But they have been, in my judgment, productive. I want to state though, that the ultimate prisoner exchanges are done by the US government and the Russian government. So, I don't want to take credit, although we've had some successes, for these releases. The official channels have to sanction and have to be positive and have to agree on these exchanges. But for instance, this exchange of Taylor [Dudley] went through the Russian legal process near the Polish border, and that did not require a prisoner exchange.
— Do you have plans to travel to Russia again? And if yes, when? And are we talking about regular trips? I understand if you might want to withhold specifics considering the sensitivity of your activities.
— At this point, I have no plans to go to Russia. But that doesn't mean that the last minute [trip can’t be done]. If I feel it would be helpful to get a prisoner released, I will do it. I would coordinate with my government. But they don't tell me what to do. I am a private citizen with a foundation. But I would cooperate with the US government. And obviously I would want to have serious meetings in Russia. But right now there's no plan to go. We are working intensively on the Paul Whelan case. That is the highest priority, I believe for the US government but also for organizations like mine. Now there are other Americans detained, that we are also working the case, but also through Russian legal processes, not necessarily through official channels.
— This actually brings me right to my next question. You said after bringing Mr. Dudley home that the priority for you will now be Paul Whelan’s case. Are you discussing it with the Russian side? Are you using official or non-official channels?
— Well, there's an official channel between the Russian and US government on Paul Whelan. We're not interfering with that. However, we have channels where we are working on the Paul Whelan case and coordinating and will coordinate with the US government if there appears to be some movement. But at this time, I think because the relationship is not good between Russia and US, unfortunately, little progress has been made, at least on my side. But we remain hopeful. The good news is that despite the bad relationship between the US and Russia, there have been prisoner exchanges. Trevor Reed, Brittney Griner, this young man Taylor [Dudley] that we got out. Hopefully, it'll be the same with Paul Whelan. There have been negotiations involving prisoner exchange. And President Biden and Russian authorities, despite the terrible geopolitical relationship, have been able to work on humanitarian issues. My view has always been that with humanitarian issues, with human rights issues, you make progress in the area of bilateral relations, geopolitical relations, tensions. That you start with humanitarian exchanges, human rights issues, and I believe, eventually, hopefully, that will be a key to improving the relationship that is very bad. I support my government, I support our policy, US policy. But <…> over the years as somebody that has worked very hard on US-Russian relations, when I was ambassador to the United Nations, on many geopolitical issues, Africa, Iraq, we work together. And then when I was Secretary of Energy, we had exchanges with Russia, on scientists, on nuclear weapons, on uranium, on computers, training Russian nuclear experts into becoming computer experts, joint cities. I did a lot of that. So, I have good ties in Russia. And I wish… I am very, very concerned with the end of the arms control treaty, I think that has to be a major priority to reestablish that - the START-2 Treaty. I'm just very saddened at this point.
— We're going to come to that, to the New START a bit later. But now if you don't mind, I would like to push a point about Paul Whelan’s case a bit more. You just said and correct me if I'm wrong, that a little quote unquote, a little progress has been made. Were you referring to the Paul Whelan’s case <…> or to something else?
— <…> Paul Whelan is our top priority. But there are others. Marc Fogel, for instance. There are two other cases in Russia of Americans, veterans that had been detained. But we… These negotiations, the official channel is the main channel. But then what my organization does, sometimes we're catalysts. We push both sides with conversations and say maybe you should try this, maybe you should try that. And I think we were helpful on the Trevor Reed issue and on the Griner issue. But the credit should go to the US government and the Russian government - that they did it. But we helped. And Paul Whelan, we're working on it. But these are slow, you know. And all of a sudden, something happens. But they're slow. But the main channel is the official channel that the US and Russian government have. But that doesn't mean we don't have an impact. But we are working on it. But right now, you know, it's a little bit of a stalemate, a standstill.
— What about other, less high-profile cases? Marc Fogel, you mentioned yourself. You also said something about two other cases. Could you give me to the extent possible some details about those? Or not even details but just some general outline of this work?
— Well, we only started on the Marc Fogel case, because in order for my organization to get involved in a hostage case, we have to be asked by the family. And the family has now asked us, so we're working on the Marc Fogel [issue], so is the US government. But there are two others that we are working on, that [are] lower profile, that we are making some progress, some. But I was very pleased with the cooperation that my organization and Russian authorities, the Russian legal system to get this young man about a month ago, Taylor Dudley, out of prison near the Polish border. And we got him out and brought him home with his mother.
— This is the question you are probably going to hate to hear, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Is there a chance we will see a prisoner exchange or even a number of exchanges between the United States and Russia this year? How high the chances are for that, in your estimation? Are we looking at potential several swaps?
— Well, by nature, I'm an optimist. And I was ridiculed when I said that Trevor Reed and Brittney Griner would come out before the end of the year, last year, and they did. I was, well, you know, I was right. It wasn't necessarily all my doing. But I am optimistic that this calendar year that Paul Whelan will come out. I think it'll be a prisoner exchange. Others - we're working on. And hopefully, also. But I think it's very important in improving the relationship between the US and Russia, which is very bad, that that these humanitarian cases be observed and resolved. So I am urging the Russian government to try to work this Paul Whelan issue, it's very important to America, to Americans. And I know that they (the Russian authorities - TASS) are concerned about their citizens.
— The Biden administration had tried to push through a “one for two” exchange option favoring the US, trying to get both Paul Whelan and Brittney Griner for Viktor Bout. This didn't work, as we know. But do you think this option is potentially workable? Or in situation like this only a proportionate and exactly matching number of individuals can be exchanged?
— Well, I don't want to criticize my government. But I think they did the right thing in exchanging Brittney Griner for Bout. I think that was good. I supported that. Now, I think other options need to be explored too. Whether it's two for two, one for one, I just want to get American hostages out, and I'm sure the Russian Federation wants to get theirs out. It just takes negotiation and good faith. And [you need to] separate the negative tension from humanitarian issues.
— I was strictly referring to a formula, I was not talking about specific [case]. Is it even possible to get two for one? Or in these cases, we can only speak about exactly matching numbers?
— I don't know what it's going to be. Paul Whelan - obviously, the Russian Federation has accused him of crimes that I don't believe are the case, the spying. And that's been a priority for the Russian Federation, the fact that, you know, espionage is very serious, I recognize that. But I believe that Paul Whelan is a good man. And he's been there four years and deserves to come home. The Russian Federation is going to want something in return. And so I don't want to get into formulas one for one, two for two, but I just want to see it done. And if my organization can help being a catalyst, that's what our purpose is.
— Has Russia ever assisted the Richardson Center in its activities around the world in countries other than Russia?
— No. We get funding… Well, first of all, my organization is small. We get funding from individuals. But no, the Russian Federation [hasn’t assisted the Richardson Center]. <…> The answer's no. We have not worked together on North Korea or some of the other countries I've dealt with, no.
— Are you still active in the DPRK, do you keep in touch with the North Koreans? Can your prior work there help with the current stalemate over North Korea's nuclear and missile programs?
— Well, I've been to North Korea eight times, and I've worked with them on prisoner issues, food issues, nuclear issues. I've been there eight times, as an envoy, officially, unofficially. I tried to get in touch with them recently after the ballistic missiles [tests]. And it hasn't happened yet. But what my organization is trying to do is reach out to the North Koreans on humanitarian issues, on remains of American soldiers from the Korean War, or issues relating to food and COVID. So we've made a proposal to them for a visit, but we haven't heard back.
— Are you still using the New York channel if you don't mind me going into such details?
— Don’t ask me that (smiles).
— OK, next question. Why did the Trump administration reject a 2019 proposal to exchange Paul Whelan? Am I right when I think that was a pretty straightforward affair, that encapsulated swapping Whelan for Bout? Or was it something more complicated than that?
— Well, I don't want to answer that (smiles). But I will say that in my dealings with the Trump administration, and our dealings with the Russian government, we've been working on Paul Whelan and Trevor Reed a long time, my organization, about four years. And it's also involved helping Russian detainees in the United States on medical treatment. We have done that, helped them. And so that was very complicated, that. <…> You'll have to ask the Trump people about that. But, you know, generally, with all administrations on prisoner exchanges, and humanitarian hostage issues, President Clinton was supportive, his administration, President Bush was supportive, Obama, Trump. You know, there were some issues with Trump, he always wanted all the political credit. In Iran, we help with that too. And with Biden, it's fine. You know, there's always little tensions because we're not official. So I don't want to get into that. You should ask the Trump people.
— One last question [on that] and don't answer if you don't want to. Was it you who prepared that proposal?
— Which one?
— The 2019.
— No, well, we suggested it, but it was being discussed in the government. I don't want to take credit for it. But…
— According to press reports, there was a discussion between the United States and Russia of the inclusion of the Russian national sentenced in Germany into a potential prisoner exchange. Judging by the same reports, the US government said that it was not able to do this since the prisoner was in Germany. So, is this an option? From your point of view? Is this a possibility? Because obviously the US government does have some sway over the German government.
— My opinion is that it's not a possibility, but I don't want to discuss those details.
— As far as I know, you requested the Russian government’s assistance locating US citizens missing in Ukraine. Who are these American citizens? Are we talking about Americans taking part in the hostilities, <…> people who are being considered mercenaries by Russia?
— We did request the help of the Russian Federation on one American, Korean American and we have not heard back. But yes, just one.
— What recommendations you would like to give to the Russian government and the US government so that new prisoner exchanges between the two actually take place and rather sooner than later?
— My recommendation would be that humanitarian issues can lead to better geopolitical relations, better political relations, better bilateral relations. And I think that is needed, that is needed. I think it's positive that a grain agreement was agreed to, involving Turkey, the United Nations, Russia and Ukraine. I think it's important that we work towards reinvigorating our arms control treaties. I think it's important that we find ways for the United Nations, the UN agencies, they have a very able Secretary General Antonio Guterres, that can concentrate on human rights, refugee issues, prisoner exchanges. And then lastly, the American people care about their hostages. There are Americans that are detained overseas. And I think the Paul Whelan case, a Navy (Marine Corps - TASS) veteran, an American has been in prison four years, his return, and it's going to take probably an exchange, is of the highest priority. So I think that settling that issue, that humanitarian issue, the Paul Whelan case and other Americans, but right now the Paul Whelan case, would bring on a lot of humanitarian positive movement, if it happened, in America.
— After bringing Mr. Dudley home, you said that the US and Russia managed to decouple geopolitical issues and humanitarian issues. On top of that, you stressed and you're basically saying that again, now, that a path to improving bilateral relations in their entirety, leads through these through humanitarian issues. What else should be done in this area to achieve this goal, to at least get the relations out of the current nosedive?
— What was very important about the Taylor Dudley case is that this was an American Navy veteran who went through the Russian legal system, was deported. The lawyers for our organization and the Russian Federation in Kaliningrad worked well together to settle this case, he was deported. So, what my recommendation is, try to decouple a lot of these geopolitical intentions from humanitarian cases, let the legal systems work their way. But there are some that are very political, like Paul Whelan, like Brittney Griner, that are going to take prisoner exchanges. And <…> I've defended prisoner exchanges in the United States. I've heard from people that said, Well, you know, Bout was an arms dealer, terrible person. Okay, but we got Brittney Griner back. And the prisoner exchanges as unpleasant they are, on both sides, possibly, need to happen to resolve problems. And I get attacked for saying that. But this is a geopolitical realistic situation involving human beings, and my organization, our priorities to bring American hostages home. And if it's going to cost a prisoner exchange, or some geopolitical trade off, do it, bring the hostage, the American home, especially if they're military, the veterans.
— As the former Secretary of Energy and an old hand on nuclear issues, what would you say to the US and Russia need to do to overcome the situation around the New START? You mentioned this at the top.
— Well, I regret very much that, that the Russian Federation pulled out of the START treaty (suspended its participation in the Treaty - TASS). I think arms control is so important. I think the START treaty limiting both countries to about 1550 weapons was correct. I hope it can be renegotiated, brought back the way it was. We have a little time. That is so important. The United States and Russia are the maximum nuclear powers in the world. And we have to avoid a nuclear standoff in the Ukraine, that has to be totally off the table. I think it is. But I worry that we're not talking on arms control, on nuclear issues. When I was Secretary of Energy, we had a uranium agreement with Russia, we had an agreement where we would jointly train Russian scientists who were usually nuclear engineers. We had an agreement with the Russian Navy on nuclear issues. We had arms control agreements, we had energy agreements. And all of those have vanished and been pushed aside. I think it's very important in this area, because I personally was involved with many of these initiatives, that we try to normalize the relationship so these issues can come back.
— We went through a number of topics. Is there anything I'm missing? Should have asked you but didn't? Is there anything you would like to say about this, prisoner exchange negotiations or bilateral stuff or anything else?
— The Richardson Center is a nonprofit, non-government center, we take no money from the US government, I don't take any money from the foundation, we have a staff of five, we work for the families of hostages, and we only get involved when a hostage family in writing asks us to get involved. We don't work for the US government. But we coordinate with the US government. Now, sometimes we have a different approach. They don't tell me what to do. They don't tell our organization what to do. But we try to work with the official government channels. In the case of Russia, we respect that there is a US-Russian official channel. We don't mess with that. But we have other ways to talk to both governments to say, I think this may work, this may not work, try to do this. We work with other Russians, besides the government. We work with organizations in Russia and the US that may be helpful. But we mainly take our orders, if anybody, from the families. And the families sometimes <…>, they're desperate, they're sad, because their loved ones are in prison. <…> Now, when our government, for instance, is not able to have discussions with the governments that have Americans, sometimes we step in. We've done that in Myanmar. We've done that, in some cases in Russia. We've done that in other countries, in North Korea. So we have a role. And it's not just governments that can deal with humanitarian issues, sometimes there are institutions, sometimes there are mediators, sometimes it's the Pope, sometimes it's the United Nations or a third country. Turkey has played a good role on the grain agreement. You know, perhaps we should get other countries involved in trying to mediate the situation in Russia and Ukraine. Get the United Nations, get the Pope, get unofficial channels. It's not always governments. Just the last point. My point in our organization is that we do have direct discussions. I've had on these cases - Griner, Trevor Reed, Dudley - positive discussions with the Russian government, the Russian Federation, also with the [US] administration. And then we push both sides to accelerate their efforts. We don't make the final deal, I just want to be clear about that. Because we don't have the resources or we don't have the authority on a prisoner exchange. It has to be the President of the United States. And I commend him for what he did with Trevor Reed and Brittney Griner. It took a prisoner exchange. But this case of Dudley, it was Americans and Russians, not necessarily the government, working through the Russian legal system, Kaliningrad and it happened. So, I think there are more opportunities if we decouple the geopolitical tensions and deal with these issues directly. Grassroots - that can help.